Alternate Realities/Sacred Materiality: a conversation with Demoness Veil
I’m delighted to share this recent conversation with Demoness Veil in which we delve into the intersections of world building, the subconscious, material fetishism & deep diving into bizarre underworlds all while remaining mindfully anchored in the rest of our lives.
Demoness Veil: We talk a lot about what our work actually is and what people think it is. I feel like our ongoing conversations help me enhance my personal clarity about our work that I can then express through clearer representations in my imagery, online presence and corporeal presence in session. I think it’s great we decided to post one of these conversations to help shed a little light on our unique take within an intentionally shrouded world of Domming.
Mistrix Sade: Agreed. The written word has always been a preferred mode of expression for me and I think it is underutilized by many in our profession. Of course, most of us respond strongly to visuals and I absolutely believe in the power of potent imagery however I think its important that we not neglect thoughtful conversation, blogging, and the depth of articulation that is possible through writing with intention.
Demoness Veil: Lately I have been particularly focused on two themes that I thought we could discuss; one which is the way that we are creating virtual realities in collaboration with willing bottoms, objects and atmospheres, and the other the degree to which fetishes are inherent to materials. I use the term ‘virtual reality’ because I think of a scene as a constructed reality that I bring to life through the activation of material cues and linguistic triggers. As Dommes we wield the words, actions and materials that carry the fantasy into an embodied experience. And because the embodied experiences we are curating confront the abject, there is a very important delineation between real enactment and simulation. We do not want to be in these scenarios for real but we may want to lose sight of what is real for a few hours. And although some of the material and psychological factors in BDSM/kink play can pose a risk irregardless of professionality, the constructed nature of a pro session is about containing the potential risk and interpersonal complexities while still getting to access the feelings associated with those activities, objects, and states of mind.
Mistrix Sade: Exactly. The potency of constructing these temporary alternate realities is part of why I find role-play in particular to be so interesting. The majority of my sessions involve rather involved, bizarre scenarios where I enact the role of mad scientist, doctor, villainess, sadistic femme fatale, etc. We are tapping into commonly understood potent frameworks and narratives to facilitate a space in which bottoms and submissives can experience the beauty and release of surrender in a controlled, safer context. We fashion a very intentional container within which we can plumb the depths all while knowing where the sides of the container are and that we can access them need be at any time. The container is like a beautiful vase. It gives shape, context, focus, definition.
DV: The underlying concern when attempting to enact these activities outside of a virtual reality (one with agreed upon fabricated rules and dynamics) is that undue harm (particularly psychological and long lasting bodily harm) could be done to oneself or others. Sometimes confusion for the sub about whether or not the constructed scenario is “real” causes enough friction to interrupt safe play. It is understandable that this can happen as intimacy and subspace are both deeply rooted in the subconscious, which is literally below consciousness. And furthermore a submissive is of course “submitting,” or “succumbing,” to the energy at play. However I believe it is the job of a submissive to regularly reset and remind themselves of what is real by doing the analytical work of pulling subconscious thoughts to the surface. I acknowledge that this can be a mildly uncomfortable process and could even stimulate subdrop. Because, by doing so, the sub is essentially pulling themselves out of a fantasy that is serving to arouse or soothe nerves. However, this allows for better sessions and supports scenarios that can be comfortably revisited. I feel partaking in what could be called: BDSM mental hygiene, permits longevity in play and maintains interpersonal dynamics that surround the play.
MS: I firmly believe that to engage safely in deep fantasy exploration one must be firmly grounded in reality. The anchor and the shore must be relatively stable. For this reason I am very selective with who I decide to pursue certain scenarios with and I will not jump in to the deepest end in one session with someone I just met regardless of their play experience. I encourage my subs (and everyone, honestly) to maintain a regular journaling practice to reflect, process, and train the self to be able to engage with kink from a place that is intentional and responsive (instead of impulsive and reactionary). I also strongly encourage a holistic perspective and the commitment to other types of mind/body practices in conjunction with regular kink exploration and that is a huge part of why I've been training to be a Pilates instructor. Such practices could be things like meditation, therapy, yoga, pilates, cycling, hiking, getting regular bodywork, acupuncture, etc. We often develop kink interests surrounding traumatic or otherwise challenging experiences we've had (I've noticed this to be very true with many medical fetishists). I think it's important to reflect on our relationships with our parents, our siblings, societal structures, and the other myriad power dynamics we've experienced throughout out lives and examine how that might be shaping our interests. I think we sometimes decide to engage in play in a controlled, consensual environment to regain a sense of agency via experiences that look and feel similarly to past ones in which we did not have agency. That being said, I don't think things need to always be or feel so heavy. I believe that play for play's sake is crucial for adults and is essential to health when it's engaged with in a balanced way.
DV: I would clarify that these states of mind are accentuated by material physical things, and the semiotics attached to the materiality. But of course this brings up a philosophical debate about the inherent qualities of the material vs the socially imbued qualities. For example; Metal, leather, latex . . . do these materials hold some inherent quality that people would respond to without cultural interpretation? and of course the way we experience things will at minimum have an overlay of societal imaginaries. Which is to say, a whole world of associations that happens in one’s mind when you encounter something. Kink has a lot to do with activating archetypes, where some artifact holds a large quantity of associations forged through time through cultural reproduction; stories, movies, artistic reference, meme, subcultural recoding, fashion.
What do you think about the inherent quality vs. interplay of archetype/ semiotics of these materials?
MS: I think about this distinction often. What intrinsic qualities do these materials possess that imbues them with the power to then set off this whole chain of association and cultural reproduction over time? I think about my own relationship to leather as a fetishist. The attraction feels primal. We are talking about skin after all. We obviously can't transport ourselves into a vacuum to truly consider these materials devoid of the amassed associations but I will try to isolate in my mind as a thought experiment. For a moment I will forget about high heel leather boots or gloves or other fetish garments and simply try to think about how I feel when I encounter this material in a more "neutral" context. Responding positively to soft skin feels like a very primal thing to me. The material stimulates me even if I'm simply encountering it in a piece of furniture or some other utilitarian context. But then I start to think about the erotic charge that these materials can collect and amplify when fashioned just so. I think about the hold and magic of very "classic" fetish items: classic fitted thigh high leather boots with the perfect arch, heel and toe shape, leather opera gloves, a leather trench coat, genuine fully fashioned nylon stockings, a perfectly fitted corset, a latex or leather catsuit, etc. I am a person that loves fashion in general including experimental cuts and deigns but when it comes to actual genuine fetishistic desire and appreciation, the classics are what grip and intoxicate me. Everything must be just so in fit, material, cut, etc. I think about how I feel utterly transported and transformed when I don a full outfit of perfectly fitted and fashioned fetish attire that echoes the styles and forms that dommes, fetishists and the like have been loving adorning themselves in for decades. The feeling is as if I am stepping into a deep and potent stream that travels to and from a place outside of time.
I have always believed in the value of bringing a sense of magic and enchantment into my every day life. These objects almost hold a talisman-like quality for me. I think about animism and the original meaning of the word "fetish" and how it applied to amulets and talismans in various spiritual practices across many cultures.
I'd love to hear more about your thoughts regarding the intersection of animism and material fetishism in the modern kink context.
DV: I am really enjoying the implications of your word choice discussing material fetishism. Animism and primal, intoxication and talisman, transported, enchantment and everyday magic. One of the reasons I center hypnosis and trance states in Domme work is because I want to diminish the overbearing pressure on us from our broken society. Broken because I feel it betrays us as creatures on intellectual, physical and metaphysical planes. I find that materials I fetishize, or have witnessed another fetishize are like points of entry, passageways or thinned veil between Ego-forward-societally-appropriate self and the primal, childlike or subconscious self. I understand that things like high intensity fear evoking scenarios are more culturally legible as overtaking someone, however from my previous experience in bodywork I find that first bringing someone fully into the present moment with attunement and relaxation actually makes for deeper intensity. That does not mean that fear, violence and humiliation are to be avoided, but rather they should be brought forward more intentionally and deftly. But to return to the initial question, I do believe that there is something intrinsic about the materials irregardless of social meaning that is at the core of fetishes, particularly the long standing traditional ones.
MS: I have also long thought about the dungeon, the space where BDSM and kink occurs as an entrance and window into the "underworld" on a psychological level. A physical space fashioned through carefully chosen materials, furniture, lighting, and decor to be so removed from the bright and sunny normal world that peeking behind the veil of ordinary consciousness becomes much easier. A space to potentially be enveloped and held by shadow. The physical quality of the space is integral to this. I was raised Catholic and even though I no longer practice I am still mesmerized by the use of physicality via space and ritual objects to open one up to other states of consciousness.
DV: Yes, spaces where the internal reality can be amplified and echoed outside of yourself definitely make the switch away from the self-aware ego into some state of eroticism or catharsis much easier. Embodiment of the fantasy for the Domme and the sub becomes more immersive. Atmospherics enhance ones ability to loose sight of what is real. When everything around you reflects the fantasy there is no friction against the desired reality. However it also means that stepping back into reality is simpler because there is a spatial delineation. This world building is one of my favorite aspects of our work.
Photo by Maria La Sangre